bought a pattern but

[settler]

i have been selling some stuff on ebay and want to sell more (uk) i know patterns are copyright and i hope to design my self if i can find the time and if i sell a pattern can someone else make that item and sell it on ebay as i have just bought a pattern and was hoping to make ther item and sell it but it says on the page that

This pattern is my own design and is copyrighted to me so please note that the pattern you are buying is for personal use only and not to be used in anyway for profit or distributed in any form.

pattern was bought from usa ebayer
we all buy patterrns all the time from shops make and sell it so whats the difference
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8210514121&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1

http://www.dianelangan.com/crochetpatterns/shrugs.html


the top link is the pattern i bought if you look on the second link and scroll down guess what there it is
now maybe im wrong but the pattern on ebay is being sold not by the designer but claiming to be the designer and saying i couldnt use it am i right or wrong please say im wrong
just had a look maybe it is the same person

[threeolivemartini]

some patterns you arent supposed to do that with . you need to read each one.. some dont mind you using the pattern to make profit as long as you dont sell the pattern itself.. others. dont want you to do anything with it other than personal use.. it varies from pattern to pattern...

[Etaria]

I would contact the seller and ask themn to clarify what they are exactly saying. Maybe they meant to say you could not distribute this pattern for profit.. but that wouldn't make sense because all designers do not want their items distributed in any form whatsoever. It does sound like the designer is saying no profit can be made.. but eh what the heck I would write to her and ask her to make sure.

I do not know the legalities of it all.. I know for my patterns I don't care what the person does with the finished item and I write that in my copyright notice. I do clearly state though that in no form are my patterns to be distrubted in any way, whether it be for free or for sale...

But i know what you mean.. when buying a pattern book from like walmart. i have sold things i have made from them in the past. I guess maybe when you are dealing with personal designers it is their terms, since they put in the time and effort to create the pattern and it is thier preference for no profit to be made of any kind from the finished product.. which to me well.. I do not understand their point of view but I can respect it.

Maybe email her and explain how beautiful her pattern is and you bought it under the notion believing you could sell the finished product (not the pattern itself) because that is the norm... (you may even have more leverage if nowhere in the auction did she state that you could not sell finished project).

Let us know what she says if you decide to email her... or him for that matter,.

[settler]

i emailed her so we will wait and see but if she says no then i would not do it

[mimi_mia]

I don't know much about the copyright laws and I don't make anything to sell, but I do know that if all crafters only bought patterns we were going to use for personal use, there wouldn't be many pattern books being sold. I don't think we can keep everything we make. I know there has to be some control on it but if you are willing to sell your pattern, it's pretty much out of your hands what someone will do with it. I'd like to see Coke come after a restauraunt for doubling the price on a Coke!!

[settler]

i know i was thinking all this but ishe said she didnt mind me selling locally but thats not what i was going to do but i probably wont do it anyway she did say that people do make and sell her stuff on ebay and it was illeagal but what can she do about it im not sure it would be illeagal selling the pattern yes but i wouldnt do that anyway

[Etaria]

Was it in the auction saying you could not sell the finished item? If not.. then she should have put that in... I am sure lots of people buy patterns for giving items to family and friends.. but there are a lot who also like to sell the finished items.

[Catana]

"Personal use" includes making the items for gifts. There is no legal limitation on that.

Doubling the price of something has nothing to do with the issue under discussion, but Coke can, if they want to, legally forbid sellers to change the basic price or at least limit any increase in the price.


I don't know much about the copyright laws and I don't make anything to sell, but I do know that if all crafters only bought patterns we were going to use for personal use, there wouldn't be many pattern books being sold. I don't think we can keep everything we make. I know there has to be some control on it but if you are willing to sell your pattern, it's pretty much out of your hands what someone will do with it. I'd like to see Coke come after a restauraunt for doubling the price on a Coke!!

[dudleyspinner]

This link is to a site with legal definitions of copywrite laws

http://www.patents-info.com/Default.aspx?PageContentID=41&tabid=178

Here is a bit of what it says:
quote.
Copyright covers the expression of an idea, not the idea itself—this is called the idea-expression divide. For example, if a book is written describing a new way to organize books in library, a reader can freely use that method without being sued and even describe it to others; it is only the particular way in which the original author described that process that is protected by copyright. One might be able to obtain a patent for the method, but that is a different subject. Compilations of facts or data may be copyrighted if the facts are selected and arranged in an original manner, though protection will only apply to wholesale copying of that selection and arrangement and not to the facts themselves.

In some cases, ideas may only be capable of intelligible expression in only one or a limited number of ways. Therefore even the expression in these circumstances is unprotected, or extremely limited to verbatim copying only. In the United States this is known as the merger doctrine, because the expression is considered to be inextricably merged with the idea. Merger is often pleaded as an affirmative defense to infringement, though some believe that it should prevent the material at issue from being copyrighted in the first place.
end quote.

Reading this make me think that people who write patterns and put limitations on how it can be used are not protected by the law.

If I sell you a pattern, and ask you not to use it for your own profit, that is a request. not a legal right. I am asking that you respect my right to sell more patterns, but I have no right to limit how you use the pattern you have allready purchased. The copywrite protects the copying of the pattern, but not the ideas in the pattern.

If I buy a book with patterns in it, I can use it any way I wish except for making copies and selling them. There are never any restrictions on what I can do with the items I have made. I think this idea that a pattern writer has control over sales of items made from their pattern is not a legal right, just a request. That is how I see it, any other perspectives?
Deb

[Angelhair]

The creator has every right to specify the terms of the copyright including its use. I have bought stock photos which say for personal non profit use only and some which specify the size and number of copies of the finished product you are allowed to make. It is not a request.

What is different with pattern books and magazines is that they make most of their money from the patterns and don't care what you do with the finished product, whereas a lone designer has to protect her design because probably a large portion of her profits is from selling the finished product herself.

A pattern is not an idea under copyright law. It is a tangible thing. An example of an idea would be: a bolero with a big bow, detachable mittens etc. A pattern is a design that someone has put work into, not just something that popped into their head.

You are right that she should have stated in her sale, the terms of the copyright.

With my own designs I state " for personal use only" but I don't mind people making things for sale at craft fairs as long as its not in Snohomish or King counties in WA state or on the internet, which I have stated on a seperate copyright page.

[Layna]

In My opnion I feel that Once I buy a pattern it is mine. I do agree that it should not be resold or copied to give to someone else. But to make something from it and not be able to do with that item as you please is another story. I refuse to buy any patterns that state that.

I paid for the pattern and I am paying for the supplies to make that item I am making it with my own 2 hands so therefore, I feel, what I do with that item is my choice.

If they feel that way then maybe they shouldnt sell their pattern...

Ok Im ready for everyone to come and Bite my head Off :devil

[dudleyspinner]

Layna,
I agree totally with you! Copywrite laws have to apply the same to everyone. If I pay for a pattern, it should be mine to use as I wish. I have an attorney in the family and need to ask him about this.
I am looking at this both as a buyer and seller of my own designs.
Deb

[SurendraSkye]

I make and sell halter tops, the pattern came from Patons. I tell the people that I sell them to, that they are paying for the materials, and my time and effort. But if they would like to try to make it themselfs I would happily give them the name of the book I got the pattern from.

If the halter top is something I just freeformed, or am working out a pattern for I sell it for a couple of dollors more for the effort of working out the design.

If anyone finds out this isn't allowed, for sure, let me know.:think

[Layna]

Layna,
I agree totally with you! Copywrite laws have to apply the same to everyone. If I pay for a pattern, it should be mine to use as I wish. I have an attorney in the family and need to ask him about this.
I am looking at this both as a buyer and seller of my own designs.
Deb

Thanks Deb, Really just think about it If no one was able to sell the items they make weather it being crochet, knitting, sewing, quilting, etc... There would be nothing in the Stores to Buy and we would all be running around NAKED :eek

Now thats a sight I DONT want to see LOL :devil

[Angelhair]

People who create something and have the copyright to it, can put whatever conditions they want on it in their "terms of use". This isn't something new or just in crochet, its in everything. They also own the copyright to all derivatives of their work. Even patterns from crochet books, you should always ask them first to make sure. For example, I know Coats and Clark allow you to make items for sale from their patterns but only with the condition that you make them from their yarn. Everyone has different conditions as part of their copyright. It doesnt hurt to ask and they will probably say yes if they are a big company.

[Angelhair]

Rather than saying well I believe this because I want to do this, it is important to find out what the law actually is so that you don't break the law, get sued or banned from Ebay etc. (Remember the case of Disney suing the school teacher for painting their characters on the classroom walls!)

Here is an article about copyright that appeared in November/December 2000 issue of Needlework Retailer:

http://www.rosiescalicocupboard.com/Copyrights.html

What people here have been talking about is under the heading:
Making Multiple Items of the Same Design

Here is the government copyright site: http://www.copyright.gov/

About the selling on Ebay issue: Think about if you put many hours into making a pattern and your main source of income was selling crocheted clothing on Ebay and then someone came and bought your pattern and sold the same things on Ebay. Thats not very fair of them to take away from your livelyhood when you are the one who put the work into the pattern.

The "terms of use" of the copyright should always be stated when they are selling a pattern, but it is their right to put whatever terms they want on something they create.

[dudleyspinner]

I decided to try to find a real answer about copywrite law.
Apparently any pattern is not to be used for personal profit. I would say that makes buying a book or any pattern for that purpose a waste of money. And I won't be selling or giving away any of the patterns I have created.
Deb


To: Linda Stark
Subject: copywrite laws
I recently purchased Folk Bags by Vicki Square. I am very pleased with the book. I made some of the bags in the book, sometimes changing the patterns, but the basic ideas are from the book.
I have several questions:

If I use the pattern in the book to make items for sale am I breaking copywrite laws?

Are patterns in a book like this for personal use only?

Are there "terms of use" that are implied?

If I take a pattern in this book and change it from knitted to crocheted is that an original pattern?

Thanks for your time

Deb Brandt
The response from Interweave press:

Deb,

I’m glad you like the book. Vicki is so creative.

You can use a pattern for your own personal use but you can’t personally profit from the pattern. So using a pattern and selling the finished product would be a violation of copyright.


Copyright law is vague. You need to be the judge if you have violated the intent of copyright with your designs. If you wanted to license one of Vicki’s design I can give you contact information. That’s the safe way to go about it.

Thank you for asking.

____________________

Linda Stark

VP Sales & Marketing

Publisher, Interweave Books

www.interweave.com

lindas@interweave.com

970-613-4665

[Angelhair]

I decided to try to find a real answer about copywrite law.
Apparently any pattern is not to be used for personal profit. I would say that makes buying a book or any pattern for that purpose a waste of money. And I won't be selling or giving away any of the patterns I have created.
Deb


I still think its worth asking first. Most companies and designers will let you sell at local markets.

This is another reason why I like vintage patterns (like the ones on my site). If the copyright has lapsed, then you can make items for sale from them even on Ebay.

[dudleyspinner]

Alex,
how long do these copywrites last? What I read said:
As to works published or registered prior to Jan. 1, 1978, renewal registration is optional after 28 years but does provide certain legal advantages.

Is that what you understand? Are all the patterns on your site that age? I see a couple of booklets that I have, that I purchased years ago. When does a copywrite expire if it was published before is it 1978?

After the copywrite expires are you free to scan the material and sell it for profit? Do you own the copywrite now because you republished them?
Deb

[Angelhair]

Alex,
how long do these copywrites last? What I read said:
As to works published or registered prior to Jan. 1, 1978, renewal registration is optional after 28 years but does provide certain legal advantages.

Is that what you understand? Are all the patterns on your site that age? I see a couple of booklets that I have, that I purchased years ago. When does a copywrite expire if it was published before is it 1978?

After the copywrite expires are you free to scan the material and sell it for profit? Do you own the copywrite now because you republished them?
Deb

Hi Deb,
Actually it has been changed from prior to 1978 to 1964. Except for Coats and Clark, which have put their patterns up to 1978 in the public domain. I had to research each book that it hadn't been renewed in the 28th year in copyright renewal records. Some booklets I had written to the owners and asked permission, like the Bernat Hats book on the Freebies page, which is still under their copyright. Ones that are for sure in the public domain are the ones prior to 1924, otherwise you have to check the renewal records and research that the company hasn't been bought by another company and the copyright transfered to them. McCalls Crafts had been bought by BH & G, for example.

When the copyright (right to copy) has lapsed, you are free to copy and distribute the material. Even though you cannot claim copyright to the original material, you have the right to the actual copy: the scan, photo etc. This is the same for photography, for example, even though the Mona Lisa is in the public domain, the photo of it belongs to the photograper or book publisher.

Hope this helps.

[dudleyspinner]

Alex,
Thanks for the information. It is still a grey area. The law is not really clear, it is very vague and open to interpretation. How much I need to change a pattern to make it my own for instance. I use my own handspun yarn to make most of the items I make. So I am never following a pattern exactly. The guage and needle sizes are determined by the yarn I am using.
If I am making a hat I would look at pictures of several hats, take a measurement of my head, figure out the guage of the measurement and a stitch and make it. There would be any number of patterns that could claim I copied them, but all I did was look at a photos.

In my mind I have not copied anyones design. It is a shape that has been around for a long time. How could anyone claim my hat design was copied from theirs?

The same with a hand, there are limitations that the shape puts on the design.
There are only so many ways to cover a hand, the hand determines the basic shape. If I look at 10 glove patterns, and use elements of all of them, is that a new design? Or have I just stolen from 10 designers?
It is an interesting question, but with no difinitive answers.
I will to be gone to a show until Sept 7th or so. Selling roving, yarn, and very few finished items so I won't be around for a while. Don't think I am just ignoring any responses you make, I just will be out peddling my fibers.
Deb

[Angelhair]

If I am making a hat I would look at pictures of several hats, take a measurement of my head, figure out the guage of the measurement and a stitch and make it. There would be any number of patterns that could claim I copied them, but all I did was look at a photos.

In my mind I have not copied anyones design. It is a shape that has been around for a long time. How could anyone claim my hat design was copied from theirs?

[...]The same with a hand, there are limitations that the shape puts on the design.
There are only so many ways to cover a hand, the hand determines the basic shape. If I look at 10 glove patterns, and use elements of all of them, is that a new design? Or have I just stolen from 10 designers?
Deb

With crafts it is greyer than with art. I don't think there is a percentage, it just shouldn't be recognizable from the original. If you did not look at the pattern that it was made from and you have some elements that look different, I would say that is your own design.

I have drawn a design for a jacket on paper and then later seen something very similar in a magazine, but mine has a different collar and is constructed differently. Because it came from my head, its my own design.

Good luck in the show :)

[settler]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8210514121&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1

http://www.dianelangan.com/crochetpatterns/shrugs.html


the top link is the pattern i bought if you look on the second link and scroll down guess what there it is
now maybe im wrong but the pattern on ebay is being sold not by the designer but claiming to be the designer and saying i couldnt use it am i right or wrong please say im wrong

[Angelhair]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8210514121&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1

http://www.dianelangan.com/crochetpatterns/shrugs.html


the top link is the pattern i bought if you look on the second link and scroll down guess what there it is
now maybe im wrong but the pattern on ebay is being sold not by the designer but claiming to be the designer and saying i couldnt use it am i right or wrong please say im wrong

These are totally identical! Even the same photo. Could it be the same person? I'd email the site owner and let them know that maybe someone is stealing and reselling their pattern on Ebay.