How do you know if a design you are making is an original?

[diamond]

How do you know if a design you are making is an original? How do you know for sure that there isn't another pattern just like the one you are sitting there making up, doesn't exist somewhere else? For example, I am making a square, a variation of the basic granny square but in the process I have come up with a square that is unlike any I've seen before. But it's a very simple pattern and very basic. How do I know if it's an original or if there is another like it somewhere? I am not using a printed pattern for a granny square. I've been doing grannies since I was a teenager so have no use for a pattern. So how do I know it's an original? And, say I say it's an original. I print it up, takes pictures, and publish it on my website. What if a day or so, a week or so, a month or so......even a year or so, someone comes along and says "That's my pattern!". What then?

I guess what is bugging me is the fact that the pattern I am doing is so simple yet I've never seen it before. That doesn't mean it does or doesn't exist. So do I call it an original design? Am I making too much out of this simple design? I will be writing the pattern up and putting here so you can see it in a day or so. I value all of your opinions and would love to hear your feedback about this issue.

[gingerrtay]

I think you are in my head :) I often wonder that too :)

[LadyyOftheOak]

lol That's basically what I was asking in my post about this same sort of thing. With crochet just being different combinations of different stitches.. say for instance if I make up a watermelon fridge magnet and it comes out looking similar to someone's "copyrighted" pattern.. what then? Unless I'm using that pattern exactly and they can prove it? In that case what chance do you have of ever proving a "copyright" on a design? A written pattern yes, but I do granny squares as well without a pattern lol

Sheesh.. It gets very confusing.. I'm glad I'm not the only one lol I think I'm just going to concentrate on making and not worry so much about it ;)

[AshEgypt]

Hmmmm... sure is a tough call. :scrachin Maybe you can word it as your take on the basic granny. Worst case scenario if someone does come along and say that they did it first you can just apologize and remove it from your website. Since I've joined the square swap I've seen a dozen original designs for the basic granny that all look the same to me. Well good luck maybe someone else will have more professional advice! :hook

:frog

[Donna]

You know it's an original because you made it up yourself without copying it from anywhere. Don't kill yourself searching around to see if it's already been done. It is possible for two (or more) people to come up with a similar design independently. That is something we just have to live with as designers.

[Etaria]

I think it depends on how you interprate "original." For you, it is an original. Legally, I would think who made it known first would be the original designer. But also, based on coincidence alone.. I would highly doubt that everyone with this "idea" would have the same exact wording.

Searching for the source would be near impossible, considering there are no central points to search if such a pattern exists- for example you can't search through some archived books that have compilations of every pattern that has ever existed.

That is why I think copyright is so important. I am not a professional in the legal department.. but originality in a legal stance would lean more toward the one who has made it known, whether it was through selling, publishing on the web, etc., vs. the person who later down the line claims this pattern as their own... and both could be personally original to each one.. but legally, the former would be the "original."

That is as far as I would go into originality legal-wise, since I am not a lawyer and there are I am sure many gray areas.. but those are my thoughts on the subject!

[diamond]

Ashleigh, I agree with you. I've seen so many squares that are the same stitches/design, just different yarns & colors used that I wonder how they can call it an original. Yet, it's all over the web like that.

Thanx all for your quick replies. I will be posting a picture & the pattern in a day or so.

[LadyyOftheOak]

Well in that view then anything you make can be considered an "original" whether from a pattern or not. We all have different methods, all have different styles, all have different tension rates etc.. my grandmother could make an afghan and it would be very dense and tight, and my stitches are alot looser tho not loose like my mothers were... all the same pattern, 3 very different looks...different color choices etc. In that type of case all could be considered "original works" because they were different... but all from the same pattern?

:think :think :think :think :think

[Donna]

Well in that view then anything you make can be considered an "original" whether from a pattern or not. We all have different methods, all have different styles, all have different tension rates etc.. my grandmother could make an afghan and it would be very dense and tight, and my stitches are alot looser tho not loose like my mothers were... all the same pattern, 3 very different looks...different color choices etc. In that type of case all could be considered "original works" because they were different... but all from the same pattern?

:think :think :think :think :think Well, every item we crochet is obviously original in the sense that it is handmade and thus sort of one of a kind. But originality in patterns is different. With patterns, originality means that it is a unique work from your own head, not something you made from somebody else's pattern, and not something that violates copyright.

[diamond]

But, Donna (Loves Tender Touch) you're talking 'apples & oranges'. How a person crochets (tension/gauge/yarn/hook) vs pattern. I'm talking strictly on the written pattern/design. When I design, I crochet the idea while I write it.

[diamond]

:h5 Donna (YarnTomato)...we were thinking the same thing.

[Donna]

You said it better, Diamond. Tension, gauge, yarn choice, color choice, etc. do not make an original pattern.

[LadyyOftheOak]

Well that makes sense.. it's easy to get bogged down in this. But does that mean if I write down a pattern for a granny square afghan and copyright it, that anyone that makes a grannysquare exactly like in my pattern is violating copyright?

I guess what I'm asking is that the stitches and way of putting them together are so common.. ie.. ch 4, join sl st in first ch sp, ch3 (counts as 1st db) 2 db in ch 4 sp, *ch 2, 3 dc in ch4 sp*, repeat 3x, ch2 and join in ch 3 sp...

sorry I'm not good at writing out patterns and hard to think of it off my head, but it's a basic granny square.. but how do you copyright something that is so basic that everyone knows it and learns it as a pretty much standard lesson? Forming those granny squares and sc them together would make an afghan.. but at what point do you say "copyright" and what point do you say original?

I know I"m playing devils advocate.. I'm just trying to understand the delineation there..

[diamond]

It's not necessarily the stitches but the design or what you do with the stitches that make it an original. An afghan is an afghan, a chain stitch is a chain stitch....but how you incorporate that chain stitch and other stitches to make it become an afghan is the design or pattern.

[xantha]

Here's a good article (http://knitty.com/ISSUEfall03/FEATcopyright.html) on copyright that's been linked to before -- it does cover a bit of the "is this an original?" question.

There's a difficulty in figuring out whether someone else has created something before you (chances are, I figure, someone has always created something before I did), you can just do your best, do a bit of research, and create.

[LadyyOftheOak]

That's a great link.. thanks :) It answers alot of my questions ;)

[kazily]

I'm not a pattern writer, yet lol, so this only from being a crocheter...lol...but like someone said, there is always the possibility what you created existed before you created it...like mentioned, you do your best to research the net for it & if it's not out there or here at Crochetville where thousands of patterns & designs have been shown or chatted about...there is a good chance that it doesn't exist. A chance, not a certainty. If someone came fwd & said this is my pattern--& was able to prove it--you can relent & remove it as an original pattern & explain but I doubt you would find two exact original patterns with exactly the same stitch patterns for a granny square (if it was not the basic granny we all know) unless one copied the others pattern from a website, blog, pattern book etc.

[Donna]

Loves_Tender_Touch, I had to edit your post because we had a bit of a copyright issue right there. You quoted a substantial portion of the article. While small excerpts are okay under Fair Use, large chunks such as that are not.

For those of you that haven't seen the article (http://knitty.com/ISSUEfall03/FEATcopyright.html), please check it out. As Jess said, it's a good one.

[Catana]

... I've seen so many squares that are the same stitches/design, just different yarns & colors used that I wonder how they can call it an original. Yet, it's all over the web like that.
...

Crocheters who start to design need to understand both copyright and the meaning of "generic." I regularly read a blog by a lady who does beautiful work. She also designs. Recently she posted two hats that she's copyrighted and stated that the patterns are for personal use only. But I looked at the photos and the instructions, and there's absolutely nothing original about the hats. They're as generic as they can get.

[LadyyOftheOak]

Not a problem Donna.. just showing the parts that stood out to me. As I understand this though, the actual stitches are not under copyright.. they have simply been around far too long (unless it's a new and as yet undiscovered stitch that someone dreams up) however the concept of putting those stitches together into a design and writing it down into a pattern is what constitutes a copyright. :blush

As far as I'm concerned, I'm going to continue on like I have been.. I do alot of stuff just free form without a pattern at all.. so no problem there at all :lol Again, I wonder if people aren't getting just a little too uptight about all of this. If it's an obvious pattern that someone has written and published or just written for personal use then it's one thing, but coming up with ideas inspired or not... I can't be worried with it, I've got crocheting to do ;)

[diamond]

As I understand this though, the actual stitches are not under copyright.. they have simply been around far too long (unless it's a new and as yet undiscovered stitch that someone dreams up) however the concept of putting those stitches together into a design and writing it down into a pattern is what constitutes a copyright.
Exactly what I've been trying to say!!!! :clap

[LadyyOftheOak]

hehe.. took me long enough eh? :blush :devil :manyheart

[diamond]

:bang :thair As long as you got it, that's all that matters. :rofl

[Holiday]

I think if you make a good faith effort to make a unique design, meaning: not a knock-off of something you've seen around or everywhere, then you can call it original. There just isn't any way to know if someone, somewhere has created the same pattern as you. Heck, it happens with inventions and story/movie/tv ideas all the time. Someone comes up with something and three other people (not the ones doing it just for the free-ride) raise there hands and say hey, that's mine. I guess people are more alike than they think ;).

I designed a sweater a year or two ago that I thought was pretty unique and a few months ago I saw one that was incredibly similar on a website somewhere. Wish I could remember where so I could show my example but I lost the link. I know, well I highly doubt, that the designer saw and stole my design. I figure they just had similar taste. I still consider it an original design and I'm sure that company (it was a magazine link) does too.

I guess if you're nervous you could write an about me section (assuming you're posting this on the web somewhere) about your designs. Not disclaimering everything but simply making simple statements about your design process. Like: I draw and design all my own patterns incorporating basic techniques I learned... <-That is not a good example, just a really, really rough one.

I worry too sometimes though. I recently made a scarf using a tunsian crochet stitch that I developed by accident and I worry it's a real stitch. I've looked through my books and on the web and named it in good faith that I'm not snagging someone else's stitch. I know, I think, that they're not copyrightable, but someone names them... I hope to publish or share the pattern someday soon and I'll probably disclaimer the stitch just because I'm so unsure. For now I call it by the name I gave it and that's just the best I can do. I guess that's all we can do...


Well that's my two cents,

Holiday